07:01 < poelcat> who do you we have today?
07:01  * John5342 is here
07:01 < JStizzle> me
07:02 < iarlyy> iarlyy, is here
07:02  * imbrius is here
07:02  * poelcat sees lots of new people on fedora-test-list which is great!
07:02  * mprice is here
07:02 < poelcat> welcome JStizzle iarlyy imbrius mprice John5342 !
07:02 < John5342> poelcat: *new* fedora-test-list?
07:03 < poelcat> adamw: jds2001 mcepl and any of the other regulars.. ping
07:03 < beland> bonjour
07:03  * mcepl is here
07:03 < poelcat> John5342: people introducing themselves
07:03 < John5342> poelcat: sorry. misread
07:03 < adamw> morning
07:03 < JStizzle> good morning
07:04 < mcepl> adamw: afternoon ;-)
07:04 < poelcat> adamw: good (early) morning!
07:04 < JStizzle> I don't know what you all are talking about.  It's 10:04am. :)
07:04 < adamw> this could go on alllll day :)
07:04 < imbrius> Yayy, timezones!
07:04 < mcepl> you mean 16:04, right?
07:05  * poelcat looks for the agenda
07:05  * mcepl agrees
07:05 < imbrius> we wouldn't have this problem if the planet wasn't this odd round shape...
07:05 < JStizzle> we would have a host of other problems if it wasn't though
07:06 < imbrius> heh - fix one bug, cause a million
07:06 < adamw> poelcat: what, timezone discussion isn't on the agenda?
07:06 < poelcat> adamw: we'll hold a special meeting for it next week ;-)
07:06 < JStizzle> sweet
07:06 < poelcat> okay... sorry for the slow startup
07:06 < poelcat> first off, welcome to all the new folks
07:06  * JStizzle tries to conjure up a good ntp joke and fails
07:07 < poelcat> great to have you have you
07:07 < mcepl> YAYY!!!! NEW FOLKS!!!! YAY!!!
07:07 < poelcat> we'll run through a few business items and then at the end of the meeting move over to #fedora-bugzappers
07:07 < poelcat> where we'll continue with some live triaging, help, etc.
07:07 < poelcat> adamw: did I get that right?
07:08 < poelcat> first two topics are from comphappy
07:08 < adamw> poelcat: yes indeed
07:08 < poelcat> greasmonkey and triage stats... from a quick glance at the list this AM he is still working on things
07:08 < mcepl> co
07:08 < mcepl> sorry
07:09 < poelcat> until he gets the plugin thing working where are we pointing people at to get the bugzappers GM script?
07:10 < poelcat> anyone?
07:10 < mcepl> poelcat: if the question was on me, no clue ... I was working on merging all scripts into one, but not done yet
07:10 < poelcat> it would be good if we could give it out at our triage day :)
07:10 < adamw> someone said they'd work on that last week didn't they?
07:11  * adamw consults minutes
07:11 < poelcat> comphappy was working on it
07:11 < poelcat> he couldn't come today
07:11 < adamw> ah
07:11 < mcepl> adamw: comphappy is the official maintainer of the script which I write ... you know those Red Hat guys, they have to have upstream always ;-)
07:11 < adamw> hehe
07:11 < iarlyy> he have a git repository, i don't remember the link
07:12 < poelcat> okay we'll have to track that down later
07:13 < adamw> for the triage day i can just throw up the versions of both scripts i have onto my own site if nothing else.
07:13 < John5342> i have the link to the script i was asked to try last week adding signatures if that helps
07:13 < mcepl> adamw, poelcat: https://fedorahosted.org/triage/browser/greasemonkey ???
07:13 < poelcat> we should probably have one focused wiki page about greasemonkey script... how to get it configure it, etc.
07:14 < poelcat> there we go!
07:14 < poelcat> thanks adamw 
07:14 < mcepl> but that looks kind of busted
07:14 < iarlyy> a center place for GM will be good.
07:15 < mcepl> I always thought that it is that fedorahosted.org repo?
07:15 < mcepl> but I don't use it myself, so not sure
07:15 < poelcat> also described here w/ a link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/Tools
07:16 < poelcat> which is a lead in to our next topic... wiki pages :-/
07:16  * poelcat not sure where to start :)
07:17 < poelcat> we all agree the wiki pages need to be better.. the part we probably don't all agree on yet is how to get them to a better place
07:17 < adamw> how about beland tells us his Grand Plans
07:17 < adamw> and we all call him Napoleon
07:17 < adamw> =)
07:17 < mcepl> and let him do it ... ;-)
07:17 < beland> Well, I laid out all of the decision points in my last long email...I can recap.
07:17 < poelcat> beland: go for it!
07:18 < beland> First, for approval: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/Joining/tmp
07:18  * poelcat wonders if we should set aside a day, like for the today's triage day, but to focus on fixing up the wiki
07:19 < poelcat> beland: can you start with your overall vision of how things should be layed out ?
07:19 < beland> which is a merge of [[BugZappers/HelpWanted]] with [[BugZappers/Joining]]
07:20 < adamw> poelcat: i'm not sure it would benefit from that format. to be honest, i think this is probably best done via the list
07:20 < beland> If you mean my front page draft, that's at: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Beland/BugZappers
07:20 < adamw> so people have time to hash out, evaluate and discuss drafts
07:20 < poelcat> adamw: true
07:21 < adamw> i suspect if we try and handle it in the meeting it'll be a huge time sink and not get anything much done
07:21 < adamw> i guess what we should look at in the meeting is, does anyone have a big fundamental objection to the objective of re-organizing and re-designing the wiki, or some kind of guiding principle they'd like to use, or anything
07:21 < adamw> something big but shallow that we can usefully discuss / agree on in a ten-minute time frame
07:22  * poelcat thankful adamw is thinking clearly today :)
07:22 < beland> It should be better than it is now. 8)
07:22 < poelcat> beland: +1
07:23 < adamw> what I really want to have is a very clear flow from the front page which allows a new person to come along and do everything they need to do to start zapping bugs
07:23 < adamw> there's a lot of other stuff we can usefully have in the wiki, but that's the bit i really want to have there
07:23 < imbrius> Well, for starters, I didn't see anything about the GM script there.  I didn't know about it until just now.
07:23 < adamw> right, that would be part of the flow
07:23 < beland> So we have 2 drafts of the front page; is either going in a good direction?
07:24 < adamw> list discussion! :)
07:24 < beland> Is GreaseMonkey ready for people to use?
07:24 < adamw> beland: the greasemonkey scripts we have, yes
07:24 < beland> Where are they?
07:24 < JStizzle> https://fedorahosted.org/triage/browser/greasemonkey
07:24 < beland> Oh, dear.
07:24 < beland> That's not very user-friendly.
07:25 < adamw> the main one is, as mentioned above, discussed at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/Tools
07:25 < poelcat> my overall concern is that was the approach we took 1 year ago.. we tried to be careful and be respectful of stuff people had created in the past and merge it into other places... i'd rather see us create some new pages the right way, then move lots of stuff around and merge one thing into another
07:25 < adamw> the new one for signatures isn't yet but would obviously be added there
07:25 < poelcat> so starting from a new front page is probably a good place to start
07:25 < poelcat> should that be our first goal?
07:25 < beland> Ah, there you go, that's better.
07:25 < adamw> yeah. that's how we did it for the main QA space and it worked quite well.
07:25 < poelcat> or should our first goal be a newbie "getting started guide" ?
07:26 < adamw> poelcat: front page first is fine. the newbie-getting-started thing is not a single page, it's a flow of pages going from the front page
07:26 < adamw> so the front page needs to be right
07:26 < tk009> gareed
07:26 < beland> Well, as far as I'm concerned, I've already rewritten the front page and I'm working on the how-to...
07:26 < tk009> agreed*
07:26 < adamw> beland: everyone else is a bit behind =)
07:26 < beland> Tell me about it.
07:26 < poelcat> beland: link?
07:26 < adamw> ok, so for the list: let's agree on a front page draft and then go from there.
07:27 < poelcat> so by next meeting let's discuss beland's draft of the front page on the list
07:27 < beland> As posted above and in my e-mail: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Beland/BugZappers
07:27 < beland> There's also [[User:Tk009/bugzappers]]
07:28 < poelcat> are there any other versions that should be considered?
07:28  * poelcat will add those two to the recap
07:29 < beland> Just those two, for the front page. There were literally 10 other questions enumerated in my e-mail which need discussion.
07:29 < poelcat> beland: yes, this process will take time :)
07:29 < beland> Though the major knotty one we were supposed to discuss today was how to track component ownership
07:29 < beland> Or at least who is working on which.
07:30 < poelcat> okay let's move onto tracking component ownership
07:30 < beland> The big question being, I think, how to indicate whether or not a given component needs/wants additional help?
07:31 < imbrius> beland:  other than asking in #fedora-bugzappers
07:31 < imbrius> beland:  which is how I got that info
07:31 < beland> Primarily on the wiki.
07:31 < imbrius> beland:  and which components don't want triage - like anaconda
07:32 < beland> I think it would be lovely if new BugZappers didn't ever have to use IRC; they could get everything they needed to know just by reading the wiki.
07:32 < poelcat> i think we have two issues here...
07:32 < poelcat> 1) we have a list of what we considered "important components" for F11
07:32 < poelcat> 2) we have a list of ActiveTriagers
07:33 < poelcat> 3) we don't really have a list of what beland is pointing to
07:33 < poelcat> we probably need to fix all three :)
07:33 < iarlyy> activetriagers and your components
07:33 < poelcat> the problem i see is trying to make each of these wiki pages do too many things
07:34 < poelcat> which i think is definitely happening with https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/Components
07:34 < poelcat> which got a redirect from Goals
07:34 < beland> Hmm, I was thinking it would be clearer if there were only one table of components, which also listed active contributors and a flag about whether or not more help was wanted.
07:34 < mcepl> well, I think we need to merge ActiveTriagers and Components web pages into one. Then beland's list would just happen.
07:35 < imbrius> I second beland's idea.
07:35 < adamw> so does mcepl. :)
07:35 < mcepl> yeah
07:35 < adamw> sounds fine to me
07:35 < adamw> i'm worried about it getting cruft-y, as the current 'active triagers' list has, but that's sort of unavoidable.
07:35 < John5342> without trying to add more work to people what about making components etc part of triage stats
07:35 < beland> Hopefully it will be easier to maintain one table than several.
07:35 < poelcat> adamw: we clear it out for each release ?
07:36 < mcepl> ... after each release when we plan what to do for the next one
07:36 < mcepl> ?
07:36 < poelcat> beland: can you create a new draft in your namespace and send it to the list?
07:36 < adamw> poelcat: that'd probably work, yeah.
07:36 < beland> Sure.
07:37 < poelcat> adamw: last part of "background" https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/ActiveTriagers
07:37 < poelcat> beland: okay, thanks
07:37 < poelcat> so we are tackling two wiki tasks first, then others will follow
07:38 < poelcat> 1) front page
07:38 < poelcat> 2) components/who is triaging what
07:38 < poelcat> everyone agree?
07:38  * imbrius agrees
07:38 < iarlyy> +1
07:38 < beland> ::general applause::
07:38 < poelcat> beland: you proposed a lot of a great stuff and we'll eventually get to all of it, just want to make sure we can consume it in small pieces
07:39 < poelcat> so everyone can stay invovled :)
07:40 < poelcat> next item in the agenda was about "Bug Work Flow"
07:40 < poelcat> does anyone know what the issues or concerns are here?
07:40 < beland> Sure, makes my job easier...I'll clean my house while everyone catches up. 8)
07:40  * yunustj thinks that the component list will be sorted by number of bugs
07:41 < tk009> to much sugar beland ? =P
07:41 < beland> Apparently some of the info on the bug workflow page is incorrect...
07:41  * poelcat notes the bug counts should be rawhide bugs only
07:41 < beland> Having to do with NEEDINFO and flags
07:41 < imbrius> poelcat:  I second that - many of the nautilus bugs are for f9
07:41 < tk009> one of the things pointed out to me as that needinfo points back to new in the flow.prg
07:42 < poelcat> ahhh, that is from when NEEDINFO was a bug state
07:42 < tk009> that was confusing dash123
07:42 < imbrius> poelcat:  YEAH - that confused me too!
07:42 < adamw> so, agenda: someone fix the picture? :)
07:42 < poelcat> anyone want to take a shot at fixing the picture?
07:42 < tk009> me and art hate each other =)
07:43 < tk009> if no one speaks up tho
07:44 < adamw> tk009: congratulations! :)
07:44 < tk009> lol
07:44 < tk009> kk
07:44 < poelcat> we also had an agenda itema about creating som BugZappers SOPs
07:45 < poelcat> i wonder if it makes sense to wait on that
07:45 < poelcat> until we get the wiki better sorted out?
07:45 < poelcat> thoughts? comments?
07:45 < beland> Are you talking about things currently filed under Housekeeping?
07:45 < poelcat> i'd consider that one of the SOPs
07:45 < adamw> he's going on the Infrastructure group model, i think
07:46 < John5342> poelcat: dont think it matters when its done since whatever we write can be incorporated into present and/or future version of the wiki
07:46 < adamw> basically they write out standard procedures for...more or less everything
07:46 < poelcat> adamw: yes, which i think rocks
07:46 < imbrius> adamw, poelcat:  I totally agree
07:46 < adamw> i like the idea, i just hope we wouldn't get buried in writing sops and not have time to do any actual triage :)
07:46 < poelcat> because then they don't have to spend a week like us wondering how "fedorabugs" works :)
07:46 < adamw> but it would definitely be sane for things like accepting new members
07:47 < poelcat> John5342: excellent point
07:47 < imbrius> (aside:  what keeps making all those accound sign on/off every few minutes?)
07:47 < imbrius> accounts*
07:47 < poelcat> so it sounds like away here is "write SOPs" in your own namespace, we'll pull them in when the time is right
07:47 < beland> First step would be just listing which "things" need to be documented.
07:48 < poelcat> beland: the only one that comes to mind is getting 'fedorabugs'
07:48 < adamw> imbrius: net splits. they don't usually happen so often, though.
07:49 -!- Irssi: #fedora-meeting: Total of 150 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 149 normal]
07:49 < adamw> poelcat: ok, so you write a SOP and we'll approve it :) i think it should basically just be "check the applicant sent a self-introduction mail to the list and it wasn't written in blood or crayon, if so, approve"...
07:49 < beland> A list of size one, then.
07:49 < adamw> beland: good size to start with
07:50 < beland> And don't make them sign the CLA.
07:50 < poelcat> related to 'fedorabugs'... what did folks think of stickster's suggestion of an introduction first?
07:50 < JStizzle> how do you know my email wasn't written in blood?
07:50 < beland> I actually hate introductions.
07:50 < tk009> I do as well
07:50 < imbrius> beland:  as do I
07:50 < adamw> hmm, discord! ok, why?
07:50 < adamw> JStizzle: i had it analyzed by the CSI guys. they can do that.
07:50 < poelcat> beland: imbrius so what do i do when i see a queue of 50 people wanting fedorabugs?
07:50 < JStizzle> you guys hate receiving them, or writing them?
07:50 < tk009> if you want to know me talk to me, anti social I am working on it
07:51 < imbrius> poelcat:  I understand their purpose
07:51 < adamw> tk009: how do we talk to new people if we don't know they exist?
07:51  * stickster points out that we do need a method of discriminating between bots and people since we're giving power to do things like close or reassign bugs.
07:51 < imbrius> I don't object to their use
07:51 < tk009> that was just for me =)
07:51 < tk009> and as you have seen I let it been known I am around =P
07:51 < beland> 1.) I don't particularly want to share personal details to be recorded on the Internet for all time, and 2.) I'd rather people judge me by my contributions and not my biography.
07:51 < stickster> The barrier should be as low as possible, and no lower
07:51 < adamw> tk009: no-one gets a notification when someone signs up for the mailing list. in the current situation, no-one but the fedorabugs group admins actually know when someone's trying to 'become' a bugzapper
07:51 < imbrius> It just seems a little "first day of class" - go around the room and introduce yourself
07:52 < JStizzle> the point is moot if you're an existing member is it not
07:52 < poelcat> JStizzle: yes
07:52 < adamw> JStizzle: yes, but if a significant number of existing members wouldn't have liked the idea of sending an introductory email, we can assume it's possible a significant number of potential new members might not either
07:52 < poelcat> i'm just looking for some way to not spend my whole day giving 'fedorabugs' to people that aren't going to use it
07:52 < beland> If you want a simply bot test, you can either use a captcha or send them a personal email.
07:53 < JStizzle> then don't call it an 'introduction', call it a 'unique character string'
07:53 < stickster> beland: Does that mean you're volunteering to do that work?
07:53 < adamw> beland: sending a personal email each time gets old fast, plus there's about six group admins, so we'd somehow have to co-ordinate who was mailing who.
07:53 < stickster> adamw: True also
07:53 < mcepl> poelcat: how many of them you have? really? if there is a problem, you can hand it to me ...
07:53 < adamw> mcepl: we had about ten applicants this week. three more this morning.
07:54 < tk009> wow
07:54 < beland> Is someone doing publicity all of a sudden? 8)
07:54 < mcepl> and is there a problem? ten a week?
07:54  * stickster notes that Docs team has been using the self-introduction for years and had few problems with people not wanting to do them, yet wanting to be involved.
07:54 < poelcat> yes, which is what i was trying to say in my mail to the list.. lots of signups, but where do they go? :)
07:54 < beland> Putting a captcha in the loop wouldn't require a lot of operational work.
07:54 < poelcat> ~1300 people in fedorabugs
07:54 < JStizzle> how about a very short personal statement that doesn't actually contain any personal information to distinguish you from bots?
07:55  * poelcat thinks the bot issue is not the real issue
07:55 < adamw> stickster: how do you know people aren't just saying "hmm, don't want to send an introduction email, i'll just not join in then" and going away?
07:55  * mcepl thinks bot issue could become a real issue in future
07:55 < adamw> anyhoo, i'm with poelcat. i think the point here is to try and get new people involved right away
07:55 < adamw> they post to the list, people say hi, they feel involved
07:55 < beland> Trying to exclude people who aren't particularly active means that casual triagers will be discouraged.
07:56 < beland> If you want to keep the barrier to entry low, approval should be fairly automatic.
07:56 < poelcat> i want there to be a small level of seriousness to getting 'fedorabugs' and then being encouraged to use it
07:56 < John5342> the kind of people who seriously want to help are probably also the kind of people who may not like introducing themselves but will anyway in order to help
07:56 < adamw> as it is, it's probably quite easy to think 'hmm, this might be fun', join the group, miss the first meeting, then just sort of fade away...
07:56 < stickster> adamw: True, it's sort of a self-selecting sample.
07:56 < adamw> what do our newcomers think on this issue? those who are here?
07:56 < poelcat> that's the part i think we should somehow fix
07:57 < beland> There is something of a tradeoff between getting people to commit to something in order to encourage them to put time into it, and scaring people away because commitment is required.
07:57 < adamw> do you guys like the self-introduction idea or no?
07:57 < JStizzle> adamw: I personally like the idea of an introduction for several obvious reasons.
07:57 < JStizzle> I want to see what strengths new members bring to the team
07:57 < poelcat> beland: well put
07:58 < JStizzle> full disclosure: I am very social and outgoing.
07:58 < imbrius> I concede the point that it is very useful to have introductions.
07:59  * poelcat sees we have ~1 minute left
07:59  * stickster trying to imagine an effective triager who doesn't introduce himself to the team somehow.
07:59 < beland> Well, I never did.
07:59 < imbrius> Yeah
07:59 < stickster> beland: You must have done so here in IRC, right?
07:59 < iarlyy> a simple introduction doesn't mean your bank password, 'Hi i'm iarly, from brazil, work with linux since 1000 years ago, and want help with bugtriage', what the problem
07:59 < imbrius> stickster:  I agree
07:59 < tk009> I never did either
07:59 < beland> No.
07:59 < JStizzle> what about a choice: introduce to the list or to #fedora-bugzappers?
07:59 < poelcat> beland: and some of us wondered "who is this guy changing all the wiki pages?" :) :)
07:59 < adamw> beland: would you be OK if the introduction didn't need to include any particular personal information?
08:00 < beland> And that's the way it should be. 8)
08:00 < adamw> we don't NEED to know people's real names or where the live or anything
08:00 < adamw> that's not the point of the list
08:00 < adamw> er, the mail
08:00 < beland> Then what *is* the point?
08:00 < adamw> it's just to a) prove you're a real person willing to commit to at least sending a message to a mailing list and b) sucker the newbie into being involved
08:00 < JStizzle> to make sure it's not a computer machine :)
08:00 < imbrius> Thanks for the meeting, but I have a job interview - I'll see everyone later on.
08:00 < beland> A captcha can differentiate between people and bots easily enough.
08:01 < stickster> beland: It's not part of FAS right now. So relying on a nonexistent technical feature to do this means someone has to commit to creating or integrating it.
08:01 < poelcat> let's move this discussion to fedora-test-list.. i'll start a new thread
08:01 < adamw> beland: actually, captchas are pretty often cracked these days. and, seea bove
08:01 < tk009> continue in the bugzappers?
08:01 < beland> I dunno, I'm just coming in from the Wikipedia culture, where anonymous contributions are highly welcome and encouraged, and people are very worried about squashing them.
08:01 < poelcat> tk009: yes
08:01 < JStizzle> tk009: indeed
08:01 < poelcat> we're at the end of our slot
08:02 < tk009> sorry kde team =)
08:02 < poelcat> take it away rdieter 
08:02 < poelcat> everyone come on over to #fedora-bugzappers for some triaging good times!
08:02 < poelcat> <EOM>